Bulgaria National TV Crew Arrested in Macedonia's Bitola
The director Konstantin Chakarov and two operators were arrested while taking some views of the city over allegedly threatening the national security of the country, the statement of the officers read.
"We were filming views of Bitola from a high point to include them in our movies about the First and the Second Balkan Wars, when two patrols arrived, the policemen took our personal documents and started interrogating us," Director Chakarov explained.
"Then, they took the three of us to a police station and asked who we were, where we came from and watched all the video and picture materials we had shot," he added.
"Later, the Bulgarian consul to Bitola, Iliyan Karamanov, appeared and then they released us, seizing ten of the pictures that threatened Macedonia's national security as they showed a secret base," Chakarov ended.
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Also from there:
Here are more then 100 original documents, where both brothers educated in Athens University and Moscow University self identified as Bulgarians, called the language in which they wrote Bulgarian, the Slavs in Macedonia Bulgarians, and were regarded as such by their contemporaries.: Братя Миладинови – преписка. Издирил, коментирал и редактирал Никола Трайков (Българска академия на науките, Институт за история. Издателство на БАН, София 1964) in English: Miladinovi Brothers - Correspondence. Collected, commented and redacted from Nicola Traykov (Bulgarian Academy of Sciences, Historical Institute, Sofia 1964.) Jingby (talk) 14:06, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
The "dispute" continues...
Bomac, I will remind you that "wrote" was your mistake and in BG Wikipedia too. :) (bg:Беседа:Константин Миладинов - Obviously, you meant to write "collect" too). Miladinov Brothers considered all of their songs Bulgarian. It includes all of the songs - from present Bulgaria, Republic of Macedonia and Northern Greece. Miladinov Brothers define their language and the language of the songs like Bulgarian. Why do you separate the songs according your own present concepts? You can create a separete section about your opiinion about Miladinov Brothers or the predominant oppinion in Republic of Macedonia, but please do not transfer present political reality to the our common history.--AKeckarov 18:38, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
Anton, I don't know what it would change even if I was "planning" to write "wrote". As for the political realities, the term "Bulgarian" was a political reality in that time, which means it was not an ethnical reality. Please, do not transfer past political realities in the present by misjudging them. Bomac 16:45, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
Bojan, I think that exactly here you are in a mistake. The term Bulgarian wasn't a part from some political reality in the middle of ХІХ century - at least not in today's meaning. There was not a BG state, BG church, even geographical region Bulgaria (sometimes it was Moesia(Misia), but not Macedonia). The example with Miladinov Brothers clearly shows one: the term "Bulgarian" had ethic meaning. Please, look at their life and work without emotions: In their capital work they publishes a materials from verious Bulgarian regions - Macedonia, Thrace and Moesia (if we accept that Sofia is in Upper Moesia, which is discutable), they consider their people as Bulgarian (as a part of Sout Slavs) etc. If it is not an evidence that the term Bulgarian is an ethnical reality according Miladinov Brothers I really don't know what means "ethnical reality". Regards, --AKeckarov 09:18, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
The fact that there wasn't a BG state, church etcetra even more strenghtens the other fact that Bulgarian was not in ethnical, but in political sense. I think that it is a continuum from the middle ages, when Bulgarian was used to describe all the South Slavs. And, you have to know the NPOV policy, if nothing else, Miladinov Brothers are counted as "Macedonians" in Macedonia. Cheers, Bomac 11:19, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
Check out the Miladinov brothers' talkpage on wikipedia and you will see some (obviously uncultured) FYROMians trying to contradict Bulgarians on the ethnicity of those brothers
Just a few lines from the "dispute":
Guys - the book says "Bulgarian Folk Songs" on its cover - what is there to dispute at all? I mean, Shakespeare's plays don't have "English" written on the cover - you are free to claim those I guess.
If the Macedonian consciousness was "not developed", then you should remove the double Bulgarian/Macedonian in the lead. On top of, they were quite clear that they regard themselves as Bulgarians and consider the Macedonians a subset of the Bulgarians - do you want me to paste other pages of Bulgarian Folk Songs or what? I have taken the double Bulgarian/Macedonian as a compromise to avoid future quarrelling but if you intend to play your horse around, I can also pursue a harder policy - they, Parlichev and Shapkarev have left enough evidence of what they thought about their language (Bulgarian), about themselves (Bulgarians) and about the "Macedonians" (a subset of the Bulgarians = Macedonian Bulgarians). The fact that you wrote that bullshit about the "dialect of Struga" on which they "wrote" their songs (they collected them, darling) clearly shows your intents and knowledge on the subject. VMORO 00:22, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
Please, interprete your rethorical abilities from the type of "bulshyt" etcetra outside Wikipedia. Wikipedia is no place for such talents. Other, they collected songs not only from Struga, but also from other macedonian regions. "Wrote" is my mistake, I meant to write "collect" (I know that they didn't wrote the songs). You can't judge whether the different poets and writers from that time were Bulgarians or not, without to consider the circumstances in which they were and without some kind of analysis (Yes, Prlichev and Shapkarev could have left evidence that they were Marsians, so?). I prefer the number of 584 macedonian songs to stay, because they signifficantly differ from the 76 bulgarian, if nothing else, in their accustic independence, they have typpical macedonian-speech characteristics. Also, the part about the letters from Konstantin to Rakovski should stay in the text. Cheers, Bomac 08:50, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
Their poems collected by them show that people in present-day F YROM considered and declared themselves to be Bulgarian (as can be seen from poems no. 356, 415, 474 and 504)
Poem 356: Велико дульбер бугарко, = (transcribed) Veliko duljber bugarko! = Velika, you Bulgarian woman! (I don't know what дульбер means, sounds like a Turkish word, probably an archaism now)
Poem 415: - Любико, бела бугарко! = Ljubiko, bela bugarko! = Ljubika, you white Bulgarian woman!
Poem 474: Мошне ми се мили бугарските моми, = Moshne mi se mili bugaraskite momi = I am very found of Bulgarian girls
Poem 504: Три девойки бугарки; = Tri devojki bugarki = Three Bulgarian girls
These brothers, Dimityr and Konstantin Miladinov, are now forcefully considered "ethnic 'Macedonians' "/"ethnic F YROMians" after their death and even though they declared their Bulgarianness numerous times during their life in written form. Konstantin Miladinov even wrote a poem where he combats the Greek influence that was somewhat successful in the voluntary de-Bulgarianization of Macedonian Bulgarians. I used the word Macedonian because the ones that self-Hellenize were exclusively or almost exclusively from present-day Greek Macedonia, as opposed to the ones from present-day F YROM (but, then again, F YROM has very little -- geographically speaking -- in common with the territory of (ancient/genuine/Greek) Macedonia, almost all of which is part of Greece.
"The Miladinov brothers (Bulgarian: Братя Миладинови, Bratja Miladinovi, Macedonian: Браќа Миладиновци, Brakja Miladinovci), Dimitar Miladinov (1810–1862) and Konstantin Miladinov (1830–1862), were Bulgarian poets and folklorists from the region of Macedonia, authors of an important collection of folk songs, Bulgarian Folk Songs. In their writings, they self identified as Bulgarians, though besides contributing to Bulgarian literature, in the Republic of Macedonia they are also thought to have laid the foundation of the Macedonian literary tradition."
The next poems/songlyrics are from Bulgarian folk songs of the Miladinovs (Miladinov brothers):
Велико дульбер бугарко, Велико, една на мама!
Да знаиш, мило, да знаиш, како йе жалбь за младост,
на порта би ме чекала,
от коня би ме сметнала,
за ръка би ме фанала,
в одагя би ме однесла,
постеля би ми послала.
Кажи, Велико, кажи ми,
кой ти я даде личбата?
Даль си от бога паднала?
Даль си от земя никнала?
- Що прашаш, лудо, що прашаш,
кой ми я даде личбата?
Не сум от бога паднала,
ни па от земя никнала,
тук съм от майка родено.
Here is the translation of the rest of the poem in English:
Hey old Greek man,
How did those words occur to you,
To sermonise to me, to tell me?
I was glorious and famous
And I'm still a Bulgarian now
If you like by the grace of God
I will be famous again.
Bulgarian you just don't understand
I am telling you to study
Famous Greek literature
Herodotos and Pindar.
How can you exist without books?
Books of your own you do not have
To become a learned man.
If you can understand me
Teach yourself with Greek literature
So that we may all be Greeks.
Teach myself Greek literature!
Who are those you told me about,
Herodotos and Pindar.
They are not of my people
Not my grandfather, or my g.grandfather
I do not know them.
If you speak about books
I had books and I'll have them again;
But dear Greek, never
Wait for me to be Hellenized.
I'm giving you good advice
Because I am interested in your welfare
Once again I tell you - become a Greek;
I you want I'll plead with you
But only become a Greek.
Leave me alone, Greek;
I told you again and again
Believe this, I'm not becoming a Greek
If you like become a Bulgarian!
Instead of (doubleslash) type //
Instead of (dot) type .
Continuation of the poem (only the Bulgarian-language part for now)
GRK: Bolgarine ne pazbervish
Ya ti velyam da se uchish
Grtska kniga npefalena
Irodota i Pindara.
Kak ke chinish ti bez kniga?
Tvoya kniga ti si nemash
Da se storish uchen choek.
Ako mozhish razberi me
Nauchi se grtska kniga,
Da bideme site grtsi.
BLGARIN: Da se ucham grtska kniga!
Koy se tie shto mi kaza,
Irodota i Pindara.
Tie ne se ot nashite
Ni dedo mi, ni prededo;
Yazka tie ne poznavam.
Ako rechesh ti za kniga
Imaf kniga, pak ke imam;
Ala grku ti nikoga
Da ne chekash da se grcha.
GRK: Ya ti davam arna uka
Zashto ti sakam tvoe dobro
Pak ti velyam - pogrchi se;
Ako sakash ti se molam
Toku sade nogrchi se.
BLGARIN: Nemoy, grku, dodevay mi;
Pak ti rekov pak ti velyam
Razberi se, ne se grcha
Ako sakash Bugari se!
"Greek and Bulgarian"
Konstantin Miladinov wrote some 16 poems,
this is one of his lesser known and publicised,
but provides a remarkable insight into his patriotic fervour
GRK: Blgarine, prost choveche, Bulgarian, simple person,
Shto tuk stoish, ne se grchish? Why do you wait, and not Hellenize?
Nemash ochi da ne vidish Don't you have eyes to see us
Kolku slavni se storifme? How magnificent we've become?
BLGARIN: A grkimu star choek,
Kak ti tekna tie zboroi
Da mi velish, da mi kazhvash?
Ya beh slaven i prehvalen
I pak sega sum Bugarin
Ako sakash Bog milostiv
Ke si bidam pak prehvalen.
Greek is a term coined by Roman conquerors for the shepherds they have met on the Peloponese.
Is Ivan Kostov a Greek? Or Todor Zivkov? I'd say most probably southern Thracian. There were almost no Hellenes on the inland Balkans. How come you have so much Hellenic names in Bulgaria then? Are you "Greeks" too?
BTW Bulgarian grammar is totally different from Slavic languages thus can't be called a Slavonic dialect.
What I'm saying is there were probably Cuman, Szekely (Bolgar), Slavonic on the territory of Bulgaria but in much smaller number than the native Romanized population. This population is called Aromani. (Romanized non-Romans)
Macedonians, like Thracians and Illyrians were Romanized. Like any other peoples Romans conquered.
Macedonians, Thracians and Illyrians were Romanized, also a great amount of inland Hellenes. Thracians gave most resistance to Romanization so they were completely Romanized 3 centuries later than the Macedonians. Macedonians got romanized in a most aggresive manner after the Third Macedonian-Roman war as a revenge for the previous wars. In this war Macedonians got betrayed by Hellenic lords so they sided with southern Thracians and some east Illyirian-Dardanians. Today these people are called Makedo-Aromani. These are a minority of around 100.000 in Macedonia and unknown in south west Bulgaria.
Common popular Macedonian-Thracian names today are : Trajan, Atanas, Kosta, Todor, Jon, Trifun and their Slavonic variants (like deminutive Trajko) or Turkic-Altaic (Trajche, Jonche, Trifunche). These are not Slavic, Bolgar nor Christian/Hebrew names.
The Hellenic language was only spoken by Christian priests and some higher nobles. This modern Hellenic has nothing to do with it.
Solun is only the slavonised version of Thessalloniki.
Its like telling people in Moscow to stop pronouning their city Moskva.
Thessalloniki was originally founded as Thessalloniki, the name was taken from
a female member of the ancient Macedonian royal family who was so named
after the acquisition of Thessaly. Thessalloniki means "victory over Thessaly".
you must be one of those grand sons of colonists who the serbs paid to resetle to Macedonia, in order to eradicate the Bulgarian element. UNtil 1918 There where BUlgarian schools, and churches in Macedonia, as romanian schools! That you are attempting to change BUlgarias History is well known, BUt read the US newspaper Macedonska Tribuna from 1928,1929 until 1992 it was always published in BUlgarian man... YOu have forgotten our Brothers in Kukush, Solun and all the towns and villages who have been forcefully renamed in Greece, after the Balkan Wars, where more the 280 000 Bulgarians still lived at the beginning of W@orld War I. While under French occupation towards the end of WW I a census of the population in todays Northern Greece was made, and onlhy 69 000 thousand BUlgarians, where still living there. NOt to speak about todays Macedonia...
Read more Georgiejevski, Read also Bratya Miladinovi, i otez "Paisiy, who sad oh nerazumni Jurude poradi schto se sramisch da se naretschesch Bolgarian?"
Do not bother what some Bulgarians are talking!
Iama Bulgarian...the Bulgarians are talking...regrettably NOT acting!
AS Putin ONCE said in ani nterwiewwith BBC about the WESTERN MEDIA:
"Let them talking! THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE PAID FOR!
THE DOGS ARE BARKING ::THE CARWAN IS MOWING!"
In this time he was talking English...