Thousands Pray to 3 Miracle Icons in Nurses Defense in Sofia

Right. Where does it say in the Bible we are to pray to icons?

and these people later have the audacity to say that protestants are "sects"?

Enough Orthodox mafia!

serious,

What is your problem? The subject of this article has to do with the effort to help free the nurses. If you are a Protestant who does not like to pray to icons, pray directly to God. If you are an atheist, do something else for the cause of freeing the nurses. If you do not care for their (nurses’) plight and have a problem with the “Orthodox mafia”, open a new tread and pour your heart out. But, for heaven’s sake, don’t change the subject. It is too important to the Bulgarians on this forum (mostly members of the highly objectionable to you, as it seems, “Orthodox mafia;)

You do a disservice to Christians, and readers of other faiths, in presenting the accompanying article under the above headline, engendering the disparaging remarks of "serious."

Christians pray to God directly, or through the Blessed Virgin Mary and any of those who are part of the Communion of Saints, already with God in Eternity. They invoke the Blessed Virgin Mary, various Saints, etc., to intercede with God on behalf of the petitions they put forth through prayer.

Had you used the word "before" instead of "to" in your subject line, and indicated that this was intercessory prayer to God through the Mother of God depicted in the icons, it would be accurate. As you presented it, it is not.

I join my prayers to those who are praying for the nurse’s release from Libya.

J. C. Tzos, USA

The Orthodox Christian Tradition has been around for many centuries, and these sporadic American cults like the protestants, mormons, baptists and Jehovah's witnesses, among others, cannot and will not undermine or shake the foundations of Orthodoxy with insignificant tripe and foolish propaganda. As for the attack on icons, you attack the Balkan World and the Balkan Orthodox faithful as well. Icons are a part of the religious Tradition of the Balkans, and have been an integral part of the Balkan Orthodox Christian's lives for centuries. And the news article misrepresented (intentioanlly or intentionally) the way people use the icons in prayer by using the word bow: to say 'bow' to the icons denotes idolatry, and that is most definitely not the case concerning icons. The Saints on the icons are prayed to to intercede with Christ Pantokrator on behalf of the person or persons praying.

(intentionally or unintentionally)

jct,

Please, do not presume to speak for all Christians of all countries and all denominations. Thanks.

I’m in agreement with almost all of the above. However Vas, I don’t think you can consider Protestantism as a whole as a “sporadic American cult” since it outdates America by several hundred years. I have a feeling the Germans would not like the reference. I also agree with the fact that the comment misrepresents the tenants of Eastern Orthodoxy. However having experienced working with Protestant, Orthodox, and Catholic churches in the US, the phrase “Orthodox mafia” does seem to fit in Bulgaria at this time. The Church seems more preoccupied with fighting over real estate than caring for Bulgarians. I work with Charitable organizations that help needy Bulgarians, (mostly protestant) and the Orthodox church tends to be antagonistic instead of helpful. Even using mafia like tactics (minus the hits of course) in trying to impede their (protestant charities) attempts at filling the need that the Orthodox church used to fill at one time. It has gotten a little better the last few years. I hope it continues to.

Vas is full of shit as usual.

Praying "before" Icons has nothing to do with "The Balkans" you Serbian fool!
It has to do with Southern Europe's Roman heritage.
The Catholics use statues, but in essence it is a continuation of the Roman culture where deities were represented by physical objects - even Christmas was timed to coincide with one of the most important pre-christian holiday as part of that morphing the old believes with the new religion of Christianity.

"American" cults do and will "undermine" the Orthodoxy in the Balkans, because they come from environment of zealous separation of Church and State, which has sharpen their survival and competitive skills and our complacent Government supported Church is no match for these free market sharks in the game of collecting souls...

The infighting and obtrusiveness is a Balkan feature that does help the "American cults", but by no means is the main reason for their inroads.
JKS has a point about the way Bulgarian churches operate - disgusting actually.
However, what's more disgusting to me, is using this transitional period of uncertainty and disunity to convert under the guise of "charity".

DP- you are right I should not have referred to the Bulgarian Orthodox church as “mafia”. I used it more as a rhetorical device to connect the previous thread, but that is no excuse- I was insensitive, I apologize. And no, everything is not alright in my part of the world. I was working there during the time I met my Bulgarian wife, whose heart was very much still in her native country, so we brought our work here.

Kolega- I agree if “charity” is simply a guise to convert than the motivation is disgusting, although I consider the charity still valid in the sense that peoples lives are improved. Also in my experience charity for the sake of conversion isn’t very effective, from what I have seen very few people are “converted” simply because of charity and if they are it usually isn’t very long lasting. However when charity is genuine, and people realize that someone cares for them when no one did before, they will respond with wanting “to be like that person”. I think this response is human nature, a there is nothing we can do or should about it.

I happen to be Protestant, but am not as anti-Orthodox as my first post sounded. ( that had more to do with past frustrations.) I look forward to the day the Orthodox church adjusts to this transition period and begins doing the things that have made them a great Christian denomination. I have been around “healthy” Orthodox communities and it’s been awesome. (I feel like the white racist that says “yeah I have lots of black friends”). So God speed to the Bulgarian Orthodox Church. It is not fair to the people that need charity to have to wait around till then though.

JKS:
"I agree if “charity” is simply a guise to convert than the motivation is disgusting"
and then:
"However when charity is genuine, and people realize that someone cares for them when no one did before, they will respond with wanting “to be like that person”"

Dude, you are selling ice to the eskimo here with this kind of corporate lingo... Very transparent.
People don't imitate "care" - they imitate success. If you tell me that we should look into Protestantism because Protestant countries happen to be more successful, I may stop to think about it.
That may be part of the dynamic you are dealing with...
May I suggest Turkey?
I will be all for converting the Turks and Arabs... You'll do them, and the rest of the world, much bigger favor by freeing them of that stupidity called Islam...

Kolega,

Thanks for the “dude” I miss hearing that.
I’m apparently not transparent enough. I don’t want to make you or Bulgaria into Protestants. I am an advocate for Christianity, but I don’t care what kind of Christian you are. Using “corporate terms” I consider myself more of an idealist than a dogmatist. I am more interested in the spiritual side of Christianity than the “Political” side. For me, Jesus’ teachings on justice is what motivates me. If you want to worship God in an Orthodox style or American, I don’t care. I have been working in Bulgaria for 2 years now and I haven’t “converted” anyone to Protestantism.

I think different people imitate different things. If you are into financial success than you will imitate that. If you are into other things than you will want to emulate people that are what you are into. When I see people like Mother Teresa, there is something in me that says yes! And I am motivated to be like her.

I probably sound corporate because I am always dealing with people who do use charity as a guise and I’m used to talking to them and not the other way around, or I just suck at communicating on this whole forum thing.

JKS:
"I think different people imitate different things. If you are into financial success than you will imitate that. If you are into other things than you will want to emulate people that are what you are into."

I get it, although 99% of the times is about money.
Generally I am prone to be more favorably predisposed to the Christian types, than most regulars on this forum probably because of my conservative instincts, although I still don't get the attraction to inspire others to imulate you.

*emulate
sorry premature posting;)

I actually find it annoying when people try to "be like me".
I guess it's OK if we don't all understand each other. That may be the difference between a deeper kind of believe and the casual Christians like me.

Kolega,

I would agree with you that for better or worse it is usually about money.

It is about trying to emulate Christ and showing others to do the same by your actions. Kind of a chain gang thing. If they emulate just me, all they will end up doing playing to much Warcraft:)

And you are a toilet, Toilega. You mention Catholics, the betrayers who turned their backs when Orthodox Christianity needed an ally the most, while that group of land pirates and mercenaries, the so-called Crusaders, ransacked Byzantium, and left the true capitol of Christendom hanging by a thread. I do not know what planet you are from, but icons are an integral part of the religious life of the majority of Balkan peoples. The Bolsheviks couldn't destroy Orthodox Christianity, and neither the Muslims, or the Bolsheviks' Useful Idiots, the Communist atheists. The icons were and are a source of moral support, so to speak. The other Christian groups, denominational and non-denominational, consider the Orthodox Church and Orthodox Christians idol worshippers, pagans, or just simply a strange and sinister group of worshippers. I have done more than my fair share of defending Orthodox Christianity from its' detractors and ignorant people such as fundamentalists, Joe's Witnesses, mormons, protestants, and even a Catholic or two. The Catholic Church wants to merge back with the Orthodox Church for one reason and one reason only: to take control of it. Forget all of the niceties and meetings concerning reconciliation that have been going on between the two groups over the past few years. To put it simply: one mafia wants to take over the other mafia.
As for Islam: when Europe was in the Dark Ages, Islam kept the Flame of the Greco-Roman World burning, and preserved the Knowledge and Wisdom of the Ancients by translating what was left of the ancient writings, and having some of the best universities in the World at that time; some of them are probably still around. See you at the town mosque!