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Topic: Parental Guidance


#1
judge advocaat retired - 14 Feb 2009 // 11:53:15

This news from a British Newspaper seems to summarise what Bill was trying to explain, but in all of this I remain strictly neutral when it comes to child rearing.

Baby-faced Alfie Patten was just 12 when the baby was conceived during one night of unprotected sex with Chantelle Steadman, 15.

Her unemployed parents, Penny, 38, and Steve, 43, are alleged to have ­allowed the pair to share Chantelle’s bed.

Alfie lives on a nearby council estate with his mother Nicola, 43. His mother said yesterday: “We will be there for Alfie. We will cope.

Alfie’s father Dennis, 45, who has nine children, said his son “could not fathom the enormity of the birth. Mr Patten, who is separated from Alfie’s mother, added: “He hasn’t got a clue of what the baby means and can’t explain how he feels. All he knows is mum and dad will help.

“When you mention money his eyes look away. And she is reliant on her mum and dad. It’s crazy. They have no idea what lies ahead.”

Mr Patten said his son cried when they first spoke of the pregnancy.

He told his father it was the first time he had had sex and that he did not know about the consequences.

The teenage parents, who are living on benefits in a crowded council house with Chantelle’s parents and five brothers and sisters in Eastbourne, East Sussex, admit they have no idea how they are going to provide for the child.

Alfie says he wants to be a “good dad” and “care” for his baby daughter, Maisie Roxanne.

He said: “I didn’t know what it would be like to be a dad. I will be good, though, and care for it.”

Asked how he would cope financially, the youngster replied in a ­video clip posted on YouTube: “What’s financially?” Chantelle said: “I know we made a mistake but we will be good, loving parents.”

A neighbour said: “Chantelle is treated like an adult who can do what­ever she wants. She is not a young innocent girl who got pregnant by the first boy who came along.”

The teenagers kept the pregnancy secret until Chantelle’s mother ­noticed her daughter’s condition.

They pleaded with their parents to let them keep the baby and not have an abortion.

Maisie Roxanne was born weighing 7lbs 3oz at Eastbourne District General Hospital five days ago. Alfie was the first to hold the baby and is helping to feed her.

The authority of parents is being undermined and children are not being given proper guidance about proper relationships.

“Now the chickens are coming home to roost, with Britain’s teenage pregnancy rate currently the highest in Europe.”

#2
Bill - 14 Feb 2009 // 13:35:02

JAR:

This article said it better than I could. I can only repeat--there is NO substitute for the mother in the home. Given the fact that someone has to earn the living, that falls jupon the husband, who is not in a position to give the child what it needs during very early childhood.

The way I worded it was "doing what only a woman can do".

Marriage is a TEAM effort. So many times lately I hear, "We're living together, but leading separate lives". It just doesn't work.

It's been argued that a family needs two incomes to live. That depends entirely upon how high on the hog you want to live. I'm accustomed to economising, and I do without many things I'd like to have, simply because they're not necessities.

#3
JKS - 14 Feb 2009 // 14:52:17

"...the husband, who is not in a position to give the child what it needs during very early childhood."

When you speak in platitudes it hard to understand what exactly you mean. Can you be specific as to what those needs are and why only the mother can meet them. Also what is your definition of "very early" childhood.

"It's been argued that a family needs two incomes to live. That depends entirely upon how high on the hog you want to live."

Lets dissect this statement a bit and move beyond generalizations shall we?

I will use my Bulgarian cousin as an example. He has an average middle class job (by Bulgarian standards). After taxes this amounts to about $470. After their rent/mortgage that leaves about $170 for utilities and food for him, his wife, and their new baby.

His situation is very normal here and there are many who make less than him. Tell me how high on the hog is he living? Could you live on $170 a month with a family?

Your comments make you sound like a very religious person. And since you like study religious texts may I suggest you do a good systematic study of the Christ's attitude towards religious people in the Gospels. I have it is very liberating :)

This last suggestion is not meant as a "dig" even though it might come across as one.

#4
Bill - 14 Feb 2009 // 15:26:36

JKS:

For starters, how about breast feeding? Unless I'm seriously misinformed, human milk provides the child with antibodies needed to prevent illness, and a child raised from the start on cow's milk (or some other animal) or formula doesn't get them.

Secondly, again unless I'm seriously misinformed, during the foetus stage the child bonds with the mother's heartbeat, and after birth is more closely related to the mother. The father comes into the relationship a bit later.

Thirdly, a woman' singing voice is softer and more gentle than a man's. I've never heard of (although there may be incidents) a father singing a baby to sleep.

Then, when the kids are a bit older and are playing out in the street, and yours gets hurt and comes screaming home, he wants his mother. Not the housemaid, not a chilc-care worker, but MAMA!. The father can't serve this need, either, although partially he can help with the injury..

My mother, and I suppose countless others, use the "I'll kiss it and make it better" treatment for minor injuries. I can't imagine a father getting away with that.

It just isn't possible for a father to be matenal.

Especially if the baby is a boy, the father becomes important, but a bit later. When the child is old enough to go to school, play sports, etc, then it's the father's turn. It's the father who tosses the football with him; plays basketball with him in the driveway, takes him to sports events, goes fishing and hunting with him, goes on boy scout camping trips, etc. Mothers, generally, don't get into this sphere.

Now as to living hign on the hog, that naturally is highly influenced by where you live. Naturally, if you live in a villa in the high-rent district with all the luxuries, you're going to have to pay more for it. But if you live in a frame house in an older neighborhood you won't have this problem. One of the harder things to learn is to separate wants from necessities. So long as you provide the child with the love and care he needs, it won't matter if you live in a tent!

#5
Bill - 14 Feb 2009 // 15:38:09

JKS:

Now taking up Christ's attitude toward religious people, please note that his criticism is aimed at those who make a great show of religion to get the approval of their audiences without having the spirit of the teachings at heart.

I work hard at trying to be a good person, and am often disappointed with my own performance, but I keep trying. However, the religious foundation I stand on has been proved to be true and firm, and I let the surf break over me, because I trust the rock I'm standing on.

I've recently had two near-death experiences in a row, and been saved each time by the God I worship and try to emulate, however faultily. Whatever my personal faults may be--and there are plenty--the attempt to become better is always there.

#6
JKS - 14 Feb 2009 // 15:45:00

Thanks for the details. Lets get into them.

"For starters, how about breast feeding? Unless I'm seriously misinformed, human milk provides the child with antibodies needed to prevent illness, and a child raised from the start on cow's milk (or some other animal) or formula doesn't get them."

Just so you know I (more accurately) my wife is a big proponent of breast feeding. It is much more convenient to stay at home and breast feed and I also think mom's should do just that (if possible) the first 3-4 months (the key time for the mom's inti-bodies to do their thing) but after that it is very possible for a mom to not be at home. Breast milk can be frozen for up to 3 months.
I don't think most women would have an issue with staying home the first 3 months btw.

"Secondly, again unless I'm seriously misinformed, during the foetus stage the child bonds with the mother's heartbeat, and after birth is more closely related to the mother. The father comes into the relationship a bit later."

From everything I have read and experienced babys don't bond to heartbeats they bond to touch.

"Thirdly, a woman' singing voice is softer and more gentle than a man's. I've never heard of (although there may be incidents) a father singing a baby to sleep."

You are really reaching Bill :)

"Then, when the kids are a bit older and are playing out in the street, and yours gets hurt and comes screaming home, he wants his mother. Not the housemaid, not a chilc-care worker, but MAMA!. The father can't serve this need, either, although partially he can help with the injury.."

This is where experience would help you. When my little girl hurts herself she wants everybody's attention. She goes to whoever is nearer and want's hugs then when she gets her fill she looks for the next parent and gets the same thing.

"My mother, and I suppose countless others, use the "I'll kiss it and make it better" treatment for minor injuries. I can't imagine a father getting away with that."

I love kissing it and making it feel better. It is one of the best feelings as a dad in the world. (And I bet I have more hair on my chest than you do, so don't get the wrong idea) I also love to say"unak bez rano ne moje"

"Now as to living hign on the hog, that naturally is highly influenced by where you live. Naturally, if you live in a villa in the high-rent district with all the luxuries, you're going to have to pay more for it. But if you live in a frame house in an older neighborhood you won't have this problem. One of the harder things to learn is to separate wants from necessities. So long as you provide the child with the love and care he needs, it won't matter if you live in a tent!"

You are using platitudes again. what about my example?

#7
Bill - 14 Feb 2009 // 15:50:09

JKS:

I see we're not going to agree, so let's leave it at that. What I call basic principles you're calling platitudes.

As to the example you gave of your cousin living in Bulgaria, he's evidently doing all right where he is with what he has, so I needn't comment on that.

#8
JKS - 14 Feb 2009 // 15:53:27

"Now taking up Christ's attitude toward religious people, please note that his criticism is aimed at those who make a great show of religion to get the approval of their audiences without having the spirit of the teachings at heart."

That is just one avenue of his attitude towards religious people namely hypocrisy. He has much more to say about them though, read it anew. I realize I have walked through a door with you that I have purposelessly avoided for over a year. I bow out and am walking back through the door :)

#9
JKS - 14 Feb 2009 // 15:58:19

"I see we're not going to agree, so let's leave it at that. What I call basic principles you're calling platitudes.

As to the example you gave of your cousin living in Bulgaria, he's evidently doing all right where he is with what he has, so I needn't comment on that."

OK we can drop it. I don't mind calling them basic principles either is still doesn't change the fact that they tend to generalize and not deal with individuals (which is were reality actually exists)

As to my cousin he is doing alright because his wife also works, not so that they can live high on the hog but so they can survive (the point of my example)

I will drop it though if you want. You can go back to chillin with Nelly :)

#10
Devil's Advocate - 14 Feb 2009 // 17:08:07

JAR,
To reiterate what DP said to Bill in a different context, there is nothing new about "underage" births. History is filled with examples and even in some parts of today's world marriages are arranged at young ages resulting in underage births. What has changed in what is loosely termed the "modern world" is that our "moral" standards are different as well as our ability to receive news.

#11
Philippe - 14 Feb 2009 // 19:29:44

Gentlemen, time for some anthropology (Darwins birthday!)

I have the impression that in all these discussions about teenager pregancies, we forget mother nature, and our genes;

Teenager pregancies are scandalized, and on the other hand societies have to pay expensive in vitro fertilisations for women who waited till their late thirties to get a first child, because they prefered a career fist!

Women become furtile at the age of 13-15; They have a limited number of egg's, one per month; The older they get, the less eggs they produce. More, the older they get, the more defects are found in the egg's DNA;

Men become furtile at the age of 13-15; they remain fertile till they die (although too much rakya may have bad influence); DNA defects are also possible (but these cells are often eliminated during the race to the egg)

Both men and women become fysicaly "adult" at the age of 20-21, when the brains stop growing;

It are the women who select and agree on a partnership (men are mostly ready all the time). Their main criteria: 1. a partner with the good genes; 2. financialy OK, able of taking care of her and her offspring; 3. ready to invest in children with her; 4. not too much looking at other females;

In evolutionary terms, the best offspring comes from a young woman with an older man; She guarantees the physical conditions, he ensures the solid social base; I've experienced this: when I was 17 years old, the best girls of my age where not interested in me; they wanted older men. When I was 10 years older, I had all possibilities!

for education: the mother is number one; even at the age of 15, she can perfectly play her role; The presence of an active father is a plus but not crucial; Wisdom comes generally from grandparents, and teachers

70 years ago, my grandmother became pregnant at the age of 18; she had several children with a successfull man; In those days this was perfectly normal; Her genes are now in 38 grand-grand children, a real success for her and mother nature;

During the last 60 years, we have seen important sociological changes, mainly due to technological innovations:

1. contraceptives - boss in my belly; 2. robots in the household - 8 hours work can be done in 1 hour; 3. food supply - supermarkets bring ready food directly to your table;

Women started to make careers, imitating men, improving the family finances stimulated by unlimited capitalism, and backbenched by a minority of frustrated feminists, very often the most unsuccessfull female species in evolutionary terms;

Result: households with only one income are almost impossible; Women delay their pregnancies, jeopardizing their genetical material;

./.

#12
Philippe - 14 Feb 2009 // 19:32:00

./.

We should review our concepts about family life; It would be far better that we go for a general education first, then create our offspring, and after that, specialize in a profession and guarantee a career and material wealth; There is nothing wrong with teenager pregnancies; It are the societies that went too far away from mother nature;

May I recommend you to read Richard Dawkin's The Selfish Gene?

#13
xNELLIEx - 14 Feb 2009 // 19:42:52

@Philippe

Don't worry, the chavs in England are breeding early and breeding often. Probably for the best, otherwise the Muslim hordes will overrun England and the English race will become extinct.

#14
judge advocaat retired - 14 Feb 2009 // 20:34:36

This story shows the other side of moral virtues in older men, it also shows that the views of the elders should never be accepted as sacrosanct. Hence my desire to not involve myself in this debate, or should I say debacle.

A DEVOUT church member has been jailed for 18 years for serious sexual offences against two young girls.
Raymond Parkin (59), of Burns Avenue, Mansfield, was convicted by a jury of raping one girl some years ago when she was aged only six.

The jury also convicted him of sexually assaulting a second girl when she was aged five.

Nottingham Crown Court was told Parkin still continued to protest his innocence, but Judge Tony Mitchell told him the evidence against him, during his trial last month, was 'overwhelming'.

Parkin's barrister Ian Way said the court had been told of 'terrible things' that had taken place but there was another side to his client.

He had nursed his sick wife and father and was still supported by his sons and he was also in failing health himself.

He had some offences of dishonesty when a younger man, but no prior convictions of a sexual nature.

"He is a devout member of the Mormon Church and has been for 29 years," said Mr Way.

Parkin felt, with great regret, that he would be unable to continue practicing his religion properly in prison.

The judge told Parkin that he will serve half of his sentence and then will be released, but he will be on licence for the rest of his life

#15
xNELLIEx - 14 Feb 2009 // 21:06:04

JAR

What's your point? Pedophilia is a mental sickness and apparently it is not confined to Catholics? It does seem to claim many more Catholics than others, that's why they call it "the Catholic disease".

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